2024 E02 - The rise of the Squiggly Career

peter (: 00:01

All right, good morning and welcome back to another episode of Money and More with me, Peter Komanafe. As you have probably learned from the first episode, we are taking a different direction. We're gonna talk about money being the core at the forefront of what we talk about here on the podcast, but expanding into other topics. And one of the topics which I think is really important to touch on, especially given the fact that we've had cost of living crisis and it's still ongoing. I was reading a piece of research the other day and it said, and this is from January this year, people...

Sarah (: 00:30

you

peter (: 00:31

About four and a half million people in the UK were thinking of taking a second job to keep up with the cost of living and so this lends itself to career and this journey of what your career looks like and I think in modern times what we used to think was a straightforward journey, you know, a straight line towards the top is very very different and I've got the perfect person.

Sarah (: 00:54

Thank you.

peter (: 00:57

on as a guest this week to talk about squiggly careers. So her name is Sarah. She is the founder of Amazing If and Amazing If is dedicated to making career journeys better. So Sarah, thank you so much for joining me on this. I'm really excited to talk through what you guys do. So.

Sarah (: 01:05

you

Sarah (: 01:12

Thank you so much for inviting us. I'm looking forward to the conversation today.

peter (: 01:19

Tell us a little bit about Amazing If and the work that you guys do, because you invited me to come and speak at one of your live podcast recordings, which I found really, really interesting. Lots of questions. And what struck me the most was you had a really good mix of employed, self -employed people from different walks of life, different demographics, different age groups. Tell me a bit more about what you do.

Sarah (: 01:42

So I think one of the things that we recognized exactly as you've described is that careers are no longer ladders. And it's a framework that we all fall back on because it's just been around for a really long time. Career ladders have been around for about 100 years. And so even though we're surrounded by uncertainty and change, and that's all of our realities, then we still sometimes default back to, well, the job to do is to climb each rung of the ladder step by step.

and the further up that ladder that we are, the more successful we are and also we should all have the same view of success. Now when you sort of zoom out from that for a second, you realise that that just doesn't feel fit for purpose anymore. As Zach as you described, no one has a straight line to success, we all develop in different directions, of course we've all got different motivators and drivers and ambition is really personal. So we want everyone to be really ambitious for where their career can take them.

peter (: 02:36

you

Sarah (: 02:40

but to do it in their own way. So that's why we came up with this idea of a squiggly career, one that is full of potential and possibilities, full of both opportunities and obstacles, often at the same time. It's much more dynamic. We're unlearning, relearning all of the time. Of course, inevitably there are knotty moments, some of those tough times where maybe, you know, something out of your control comes your way.

peter (: 02:49

you

peter (: 02:58

you

Sarah (: 03:06

So you were really enjoying your squiggly career, but then a restructure or redundancy happens. Or maybe it's just that you've got choices and you're just trying to navigate those choices. There's lots more choices in a squiggly career. So we just feel this idea of squiggly reflects everybody's experiences and probably our aspirations. We know we're going to have four or five different types of career. Probably that's a conservative estimate now in our working lives. We're retiring this idea of retirement.

peter (: 03:26

you

peter (: 03:30

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 03:35

unless your listeners have got like a massive pot of gold waiting for them. We're all probably going to be working for longer than our parents were. And that's a potentially a good thing. Yeah, potentially a good thing. We get a lot of meaning and fulfillment from the work that we do some of the time. But also that can be a bit demotivating if we feel like we're not doing things that we enjoy. So it's just, I think, recognizing that our careers are personal. There's no such thing as one size fits all. And also we really want to support people to sort of take

peter (: 03:42

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 04:04

ownership and feel like they've got control over their squiggly career. This kind of create not wait attitude rather than feeling like your development is dependent on maybe other people or maybe even expecting being guilty of expecting other people to do the hard work for us. So we want to be practically useful to really help people to navigate this squiggly career.

peter (: 04:12

you

peter (: 04:22

I love that. Create, not wait. And I guess, even when I look at my own career, it has definitely been very, very squiggly. I mean, from where I started to where I am right now, it's almost like a complete 180 almost. And I think you've kind of had a similar journey in terms of your own career and it's squiggliness, if you will.

Sarah (: 04:34

Excuse me.

Sarah (: 04:47

Yeah and I think sometimes people mistake squiggliness for, oh we're talking about job hopping, which traditionally would always felt like a kind of a bad thing. What would, yeah yeah, whereas I think we've got to let go of some of these, again that's a bit ladder -like in terms of there's lots of ladder -like language that gets in our way at work. What's my next step? Where do you see yourself in five years time? That interview question that I would ban if I could. And I think when we think about squiggly careers we're really trying to help people appreciate,

peter (: 04:50

Bad thing, yeah.

peter (: 05:10

You

Sarah (: 05:16

and use their transferable talents. I think everybody has got lots more transferable talents than they give themselves credit for. So you might have been doing something really different before, just like I was. So I was working in Sainsbury's here in the UK in a supermarket, doing things like marketing strategy. And I did initially what we would describe as squiggle and stay. So I stayed in big organizations for a long time, but I moved in lots of different directions. I transferred my talents from marketing to corporate responsibility.

peter (: 05:33

you

peter (: 05:37

you

Sarah (: 05:46

And I then transferred my talents into a very different kind of organization. I never imagined I would end up running my own company that felt so far away from my experiences and what I'd done so far in my career. And I think the thing that gave me the bravery, because it did feel like quite a brave move, you know, I think we're always looking for confidence and clarity, that I could run my own company, at least potentially in brackets, was my transferable talents. I was like, what have I got that I can take with me?

peter (: 06:07

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 06:16

and less about what am I doing in my current day to day? You know, my day to day and corporate responsibility or marketing strategy looked very different to today. But if I think about the sort of the squiggly threads that run through my career, there you've got lots of constants. You know, if I think about the value that I added in those jobs versus in my job today, actually, there's a lot of similarities. I think we've got to resist this, you know, kind of being put into a box.

peter (: 06:38

Box, yeah.

Sarah (: 06:44

and sometimes are the people pigeonholers and so we sort of get used to it sometimes we fall into that trap of shoulds well this is what I feel like I should do this is what other people are telling me I should do and like you I've worked in financial services and I remember and working Barclays really enjoying it but thinking I'd like to experiment with a different industry I'd like to move out of financial services try a different industry and everyone just saying to me

Sarah (: 07:18

to do and almost saying to me like, well, why would you bother? And I think if we can let go of this idea of, you know, step by step and also see our career as a series of experiments. And the reason I like that word experiments is I think smart experiments, we use data to inform them. So we're not just hoping for the best, you know, we're being intentional and what we do is we learn as we go. So some experiments are really successful and then we like, right, let's do more of that because I've found my flow.

peter (: 07:33

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 07:48

Some, there might be some good stuff, some not so good stuff, so you kind of go, right, okay, that's useful. And sometimes experiments do fail. But as long as we learn from them, it's not like you suddenly then go, I have made a really bad choice. I'm just not smart enough for this. Or I'm not good at what I do just because one job or one opportunity didn't work out. Actually, you view it as, okay, well, it's obviously not ideal. It's not what any of us would want. But at least then I've learned something about myself and I can use that for then.

wherever I'm going to squiggle to next. So letting go of this binary black and white nature of I'm either sort of winning or I'm losing when it comes to my career.

peter (: 08:24

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to acknowledge is what I think the world has definitely changed quite a bit. I mean, in 2024, the possibilities are almost limitless in terms of the things that you can do. And I wonder whether you see that there's kind of like this connection of back in the 1950s and 60s. This is one that I often talk about a lot when especially when it comes to things like pensions.

Sarah (: 08:39

Hmm.

Sarah (: 08:45

you

peter (: 08:52

you would get a job back then and you knew you had a job for life and with that came a guaranteed pension as well. Those things have long since disappeared. So do you think there's some kind of correlation between the way the world has changed and the fact that it is no longer just a ladder process, it is very much squiggly because you need to find what best suits what your outlook and what you want to achieve in life is going to be?

Sarah (: 08:56

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 09:16

Yeah, and I think one of the things that you have hit on there, which I think is equally important for both money and career is ownership and accountability. And it's something you and I have explored before. I think, you know, we are really advocating for people to take ownership for their career. And I think alongside of that, you need to take ownership for your sort of financial health and well -being. And I am definitely somebody who is guilty of, I outsourced that.

So we always say don't outsource your career to someone else or somewhere else. But I outsourced my sort of money management to the big companies that I worked for, because, you know, they do do a bit of the hard work for you. They sort of go, here's a pension. If you're lucky enough, here's some health care. And I didn't really take any time to understand it. I didn't I didn't really I didn't really engage with it. I definitely got some what we would describe as gremlins beliefs that hold you back about money. So I was like, oh, well,

peter (: 10:02

Oh yeah, yeah.

Sarah (: 10:13

I wasn't very good at maths at school. So I then sort of just, you know, I was definitely a head in the sand type person when it came to my money. And then I remember talking to a few people I worked with and just realising that they were, their level of engagement and thought and how intentional they were in terms of their money was so different to mine. And actually I was like, oh, that's just interesting. I feel like I've actually got a really big gap to fill here.

And what it took me a while it has taken me a few years because I continue to hope that somebody else would do it for me And I think I still had that gremlin and then I've got to the point probably only in the last two years Well, I have really started to think about okay. What's my own attitude to risk? How am I going to manage my own money thinking a bit about the future managing the short term and the kind of medium term?

I have now got a kid, I think that sometimes makes you think, oh crikey, it's not just about me. I suppose that makes you zoom out a little bit. And also, being really frank, so my dad died about a year ago now, and he died at 64. And so he died six months before he was due to receive his pension. Yeah, well, he had a final salary pension. So who has a final salary pension? So he had this incredible pension.

peter (: 11:07

Yeah. Yep.

peter (: 11:22

State pension. Oh God.

Sarah (: 11:33

that he never realized. And initially you might be like, oh crikey, that's such tough timing. Now, actually, when I think about my dad, he loved his job. He loved what he did. He was even thinking about, could he keep working past retirement? Yes, he'd got this incredible pension, but he had actually really thought about the money that he wanted to have for kind of living now, but kind of for the future.

peter (: 11:58

Yeah.

Sarah (: 12:00

and it was very unexpected, he got a very kind of unexpected illness and then kind of died quite quickly. And actually, because I've been the executor of his will, which is quite bleak, but I've had to really engage with money, with his money and how he organised it. And he took a lot of accountability and ownership. And you know, everyone has to do it in their own way. But I think sometimes you go through a couple of those experiences, probably, you know,

peter (: 12:04

you

peter (: 12:11

you

process, yeah.

Sarah (: 12:28

those pivotal moments that really make you realize what you're not doing and also giving yourself credit that I can do this. You know, it might take me a bit, a bit of time and I might have to do it once one kind of bit at a time and ask some good questions and get people around me. But I feel like I am, you know, I've always had that confidence around careers because that's my day job. That's my area of expertise. And actually, I have definitely gone through that process of then trying to apply those same principles. And

peter (: 12:28

you

peter (: 12:48

you

Sarah (: 12:57

how I manage my money. Now I'm not perfect, I'm not there yet, but I'm so much further forward than I was say two years ago.

peter (: 12:58

you

Yeah. And I think it is always a journey regardless. And just being, just getting started is often the biggest hurdle that you have to jump by. I know that you talk a lot about values and you mentioned this a little bit earlier. You touched on it a little bit earlier on how important our values in the work that we do and the people that we work for. And I'm really interested to hear your take on this for someone who might be employed. Because I think sometimes what happens is people will take a job or you'll take a job because.

Sarah (: 13:07

Hmm.

Yes.

Sarah (: 13:29

you

peter (: 13:34

it's necessary you've got to pay bills. And I don't think oftentimes people really think about do values actually align? Can you just talk a little bit about that?

Sarah (: 13:45

Yeah, it's a great question. So values can feel potentially a bit fluffy or abstract. So I think if the if the word doesn't work for you, just think about what motivates and drives you motivators, values, drivers, we're all getting at the same thing, which is essentially what matters most to you. And our values are formed actually, as we're growing up when we're quite young. And it's just sometimes we just don't we don't know what they are, we've sort of not surface them in a way where we could say them out loud. And so if you're

peter (: 14:01

you

you

Sarah (: 14:14

coming at values for the first time listening to this, just ask yourself some what's most important to you questions. What's most important to you about what you work on, who you work with and where you work. That'll get you some quick clues as to what your values might be and we give you loads of free tools on value. So there's kind of lots of exercises you can do to get started. Once you have a sense and most people have a bit of a sense of what their values might be, I think they are a really good filter for fit.

So my four values are achievement, ideas, learning and variety. And it takes you a little while to get to those. It's not about doing a process and getting to an outcome. It's about exploring and giving yourself permission to sit with a few of them, figure out what are the words that are right for you. Now, your values will never be identical to your organization's values because organizational values are sort of written for everyone. They're usually quite far ranging, quite far reaching.

peter (: 15:08

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 15:11

And there is definitely a lot of there's a big mix in terms of how seriously do organizations take those values. I work with I work with companies where I'm like, their values are so core to their DNA, they are, it's definitely kind of who they are, who they are and what motivates them. And if I think about amazing if, you know, our values at amazing if are not the same as my values. So our values at amazing if are useful, action, energy, and work in progress. So they're not, you know, they're not the same.

peter (: 15:18

Mm -hmm.

peter (: 15:41

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 15:41

And what I think you can do is get a feel for can you connect some dots between your values and your organization's values? That's always a good place to start. So if I take Sainsbury's, for example, one of Sainsbury's values was make it happen. One of my values is achievement. And so you sort of go that's not a million miles away. I can sort of see how I can get there. And there's a reason that I really enjoyed working at Sainsbury's, because my values weren't a million miles away.

peter (: 16:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah (: 16:11

I also think as part of like an interview process, you can ask some questions around values without saying the word. So you can, you might ask questions like, you know, what is it that you really enjoy about working at Barclays or at Sainsbury's? And when people start to tell you what they enjoy, or how would you describe working in financial services? Or how would you describe working in this company? To someone who's not been here before.

peter (: 16:18

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 16:39

people start to say words that give you a good hint as to the reality. So, you know, if they're talking about, yeah, it's pretty relentless and, you know, everyone's sort of very committed, but that's great because we all really care. I think, okay, well, that's not for everyone. I remember listening to somebody talk who created his own company and I was listening to him describe the culture and I said to him, I was like, oh, it sounds relentless. It sounds like it's not for everyone.

And he said, Oh, yeah, the number one word people use to describe working here is relentless. Now I was like, that is a really good filter for fit. People and people loved working there. But it equally wasn't for everybody. And so I think there's two things is know what matters to you know what matters to your organization, whether they call them values or not. Then you've also got to figure out how seriously do they take them. And like I said, I think that's a real spectrum.

peter (: 17:11

Mm -hmm 100 %

Sarah (: 17:37

And the other thing that you sometimes see is, especially in big organizations, maybe sometimes it's more about your team than it is the big organization. So I've also worked in places where I think, well, it sort of didn't matter that much what the values of the organization were. What mattered was the team culture. How does this team work? What are the behaviors that this leader role models?

peter (: 17:57

Mm.

Sarah (: 18:04

Is that something I want to learn from? Is that something I'm inspired by? How does that fit with the things that are important to me? And I want to remember to give a specific example being interviewed by somebody in financial services, actually. And one of my values is learning. And I was talking to him about how important learning was. And, you know, I always wanted to grow and was really curious to learn new things. And I talked about some of the examples of learning that I would like to do. And he was really dismissive of it.

peter (: 18:28

Interesting.

Sarah (: 18:32

And one of the examples I talked about was like, oh, and at some point I might consider doing an MBA, which I did go on to do. And he was like, oh, that's a waste of time. And I don't, I don't believe in MBAs. And I was like, I know at that point that was a really good filter for fit. Now it didn't matter whether it was an MBA or not. I was like, this person doesn't care about learning anywhere near as much as I do. And so that I was like, that's a really good signal.

that I'm probably not going to really enjoy being in that environment. And so I really remember thinking, oh, that's just not that's just not going to be for me. And whether it's an MBA or not was sort of irrelevant. I remember them interviewing with the next person, same organization. And she was like, she was someone who had left school at 16. She was in she'd done incredibly well squiggled in all sorts of different directions. So not really done any formal education. But she was so supportive of me wanting to do that. And so I had to.

peter (: 19:13

you

Sarah (: 19:30

very different experiences, where people were sort of telling me about the values of them as a leader, and their team, and from someone who could have very rightly been quite dismissive, you know, she'd not done any formal education, and she, she hadn't needed it. And it's not what she prioritized. But it was this idea of going, yes, but everybody's different, and everyone's motivated by different things. And I just really remember thinking, that's a really good way to get that sense of, am I going to feel fulfilled?

peter (: 19:45

Yeah.

peter (: 19:51

Yeah.

Sarah (: 20:00

in this role? Is it going to be a good fit for me? And also knowing it's absolutely okay if you then opt out and just think, do you know what, there are some red flags or warning signs that this is just, this is not going to work out and it is okay to walk away.

peter (: 20:15

Yeah. That example you gave is actually quite a really good one actually, because in the practicalities of it, you think, well, actually, if you do want to go off and do an MBA, how supportive are they going to be of the fact that actually you might need a little bit of time of work. And if, as you're saying there, he says, oh, that'd be a waste of time. You can quickly gauge that actually maybe it might be a little bit tough and a little bit more stressful than you're willing to take on if you did an MBA and you were in this environment under that person.

Sarah (: 20:21

Yeah.

Sarah (: 20:33

Yeah.

Sarah (: 20:38

Yeah.

peter (: 20:44

So that's a really good way of filtering and kind of connecting whether, yeah, a company kind of aligns with the things that you want to do and the things that motivate you. I know that you guys also talk a lot about investing your own resilience. What does that mean exactly?

Sarah (: 20:58

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 21:01

So resilience is one of those overused words, right? We hear it all the time, organizations talk about, you know, we need everyone to be resilient. I think what we mean is that we know that in a squiggly career, there will be knotty moments, it's inevitable. There are going to be obstacles, stuff out of our control that gets in our way. And feeling like we are stalling or stuck in our careers can feel really frustrating. You can feel quite helpless and almost...

peter (: 21:24

you

Sarah (: 21:28

and you can get to the point where you then get very demotivated and we spend a load of time at work so that becomes problematic quite quickly. And so we're interested in how do you invest in your resilience reserves so they are there when you need them rather than sort of waiting for this thing to kind of come our way. And alongside that, how can we be more resilient? And when I say we, I think there is too much emphasis on the I. How do I build my belief? How do I get more resilient? But

peter (: 21:42

Hmm.

Sarah (: 21:57

We all work in teams, like even in a small organization, you work in teams. And so I think it's also something to ask together as a group, like how can we support each other with our resilience, which I see a lot, a lot less of, and I think that's just as valuable. And so to give you a few examples of what that practically might look like in somebody's working week, one of the things that we know really helps you to stay resilient, from a brilliant psychologist called Dr. Bill Mitchell, is do one thing every day that is just for you.

peter (: 22:12

you

Sarah (: 22:26

one thing every day that's just for you. When I often share that in workshops, people can't give me an example of something that they do every day that is just for them. They spend all of their time giving or supporting and then maybe their home life kicks in and they do even more of that but in a different context. And so that's a really small thing. And it could be 10 minutes of reading a chapter of a book that you want to read. It could be making yourself a nice lunch in the middle of your day. Mine often involves

peter (: 22:53

You

Sarah (: 22:56

going out for a walk by myself, get buying an overpriced coffee, because coffee just seems to get more expensive. And so that's like something for me every day is like this morning, for example, I just walk out, go for a walk, get a coffee before I sort of start my day. That's one thing for me, almost before I've started that I've sort of done. So that's always really useful. Another thing that will build your resilience is what's called active rest. So the sort of resting, which is like sitting in front of the TV,

watching Netflix probably a bit on your phone at the same time. But active rest is something a bit different. It's where you're doing something that is not work, but that you are 100 % absorbed and present in. So you're sort of, you can't, you have no capacity to think about anything else. And so you're directing all of your brain's energy in a different direction. And it's really good for his active rest. And when I say active, sometimes people are like, oh bye.

I don't want to go for a run, that's fine. It could be cooking, it could be gardening, it could be gaming. So like if you're really, if I were up to my seven year old playing Harry Potter on the Nintendo, you can barely talk to me when it's happening. It can be exercise, almost the filter is, are you 100 % in it? There's no space to worry about work, to think about other people or other things.

peter (: 24:04

You

Sarah (: 24:18

you're very absorbed, really good for our resilience and it helps us be balanced, it helps us to stay pragmatic, it makes sure we don't run the risk of what's called enmeshment. So enmeshment is when our work becomes who we are. So all of who we are becomes the work that we do, and you sort of can't deconstruct the two. And we all have that risk of enmeshment from time to time. But the problem with it is it leads to burnout, which is

bad for all of us in all sorts of ways, like your mental health, your physical health. So get some active rest in, do one thing every day that's just for you and celebrate your small successes along the way. Our brains have a natural negativity bias. So we are very good at remembering our mistakes or things that don't go so well, or getting frustrated when things don't feel like they are progressing in the way that we want them to. But we skim and skip past.

the small successes we have every day. So if you write down one very small success at the end of every day, you create a more optimistic environment for your brain. And the more optimistic we are, the better we are at three things, spotting opportunities, solving problems, and asking for help. All things that help us to be resilient. And often that exercise sounds easy to do, but in reality, it's one of our most popular exercises.

The first day of doing that people find really hard, like I haven't got any. And this very small success, by the way, can come from work or home, can be anything. But the really important thing is that you write it down. Don't just say to yourself, I'll just think about it. We've got to get it out of our heads. Note section of your phone is fine, onto a bit of paper, but your brain processes things differently when you sort of get it out of your brain, essentially. And day one and two might feel quite hard, but by day three and

peter (: 26:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah (: 26:15

day four, people tell us they're finding it really easy. They can spot more than one very small successor, just trying to work out which one to choose, which is great. And then to the point on the we being resilient, that can also be something you do as a team. So every Friday in Amazing If, we do Win of the Week. We use Microsoft Teams, we have an all company channel, and everybody shares their Win of the Week. It could be volunteering at your kids' swimming lessons, it could be cracking that PowerPoint present.

that's been annoying you and it could be having a difficult conversation with someone it can be anything and that builds our collective confidence that builds our belief as a group because we see and celebrate all our wins along the way so if you did those three things all the time when those naughty moments come our way that's not the time to start doing those things

we've already got a lot we're coping with in those moments but if you've already done those things you're so much better equipped to sort of get unraveled and kind of to get rid of that knot and be able to move forward.

peter (: 27:18

That's amazing. So many things that you wrote down there. I mean, the one thing a day just for you, I struggle with that for sure. I'm not good at that at all. The other thing, enmeshment. Enmeshment. I definitely, cause it's weird, right? Cause even in the UK, when we meet someone, what's the first question we ask? What do you do? Like it's weird, right? Because we associate what we do for a living with our personality, with who we are.

Sarah (: 27:36

What do you do?

peter (: 27:45

And the separation of that, that's really hard. It really, really is hard actually. So, so many good stuff there. I do have a question because we've got a segment called Mailbag here. And there was a question I got on Instagram from a gentleman called Josh. I wanted to ask you if you have any insights in this because it kind of really tags onto what we've been discussing. So, Josh is here currently looking for a new career change, but really struggling to make it make the jump.

from web industry to design due to a lack of experience. Much of the roles I'm going for will be filled by graduates, but he's 33, he's looking for a mortgage, he's finding it a little bit difficult. Any advice that you would give?

Sarah (: 28:24

Yeah, great question from Josh there. And I think he's in a position that a lot of people find themselves in. You've been in a certain career for a while, and then you realize you're like, okay, this is perhaps not how I want to spend my time. So I want to develop in a different direction. How do I make that happen? And what we know is that a successful career change is never a sort of silver bullet solution.

peter (: 28:40

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 28:48

which I know is always a bit disappointing because it would be so much easier wouldn't it if it was if it was like do this one thing great it's all sorted and what we see time and time again is people changing career the people who do it very successfully do it in through small actions a series of small actions that get them closer to where they want to go so for example that might look like it could look like passion projects or side projects it might look like volunteering it might look like doing

peter (: 29:13

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 29:18

one day part time in something different. If I think about my own experience, you know, my career change is relatively dramatic, both in terms of, you know, what I do, but also where I work, like my environment is very different now to my corporate career. That was definitely a series of small actions. That was, you know, one I used to I changed my working pattern from a five day week to a four day week. So I had one day doing what is now amazing if and I did that for a couple of years.

peter (: 29:32

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 29:47

I also did what I would describe as a bridging role. I think bridging roles can be really helpful, particularly if you feel like you're hitting a bit of a brick wall. You know, when you're like, sounds like Josh knows what he wants to do, but is a bit of like, well, I just can't get there. Is there an in -between job? So it might not be ideal and you're definitely making some trade -offs and some compromises, but you know why you're doing it because it is getting closer to where you want to go. So for me, for example, I was thinking I'd only ever been in massive corporate.

I run a company? I was like, I don't know. It's so far from my experience, my reality. And so I went to be a managing director for a creative agency for a little while. Much smaller company, working for founders. And that gave me, that was essentially a bridging role. That gave me the confidence and the kind of clarity. I was like, oh, I definitely want to run my own company. I don't want to run someone else's company. I feel like I have got those transferable talents. I've sort of seen them in action.

peter (: 30:19

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah (: 30:46

And then great, it's much easier for me to make that move now. So I didn't sort of go, it wasn't sort of really dramatic overnight. It was definitely over the course of a couple of years. And I know some of those things are time consuming and can feel hard. But equally, we balance our must haves. So and I was exactly in this position from a kind of money perspective, must haves, I was like, right, you know, everyone says start a company and don't pay yourself for a year. And I'm like, who does this?

peter (: 30:48

It's not realistic. It's not realistic for a lot of people. Yeah.

Sarah (: 31:15

No, and I was like, so when I moved to Amazing If full time, I got, and still have, I got a massive mortgage. And also I got then got massive flipping childcare costs, because by that point, I'd had a kid. And so I was like, oh, great, I've now like my must haves in terms of money are actually quite high, you know, like figuring out your enoughs. And I was like, well, that's all well and good. But my enoughs, that number is quite a high number. No.

peter (: 31:17

Yeah. And it's not going away either. You've got to tend to it. Yeah.

Sarah (: 31:42

Yeah, unless I mean, I'd have to really dramatically change my life. So obviously, I could have sold my house and done something different. I'm not sure what I'd have done with Max, my baby. I'm not going to do something different with him. But I got him by that point. So I was like, OK, I have got to pay myself from day one. And so again, that bridging role helped because, A, I'd got some cash in the meantime. But then also, we were building up some cash in the background with some of the stuff we were doing with my one day a week. And Helen, my co -founder, had started to do a bit more work.

peter (: 32:00

business yeah

Sarah (: 32:12

So that once Helen and then I were working in Amazing Year full time, we could pay ourselves a really decent salary from day one. And that was non -optional. It was like, well, if we can't do that, we couldn't do it. So we had to make that happen. And I think then just having the clarity about your must haves versus your nice to haves. Often I think we're imagining everything's going to happen at the same time, you know, back to that kind of binary thinking. Whereas I...

peter (: 32:37

Mm -hmm.

Sarah (: 32:41

think what I discovered certainly myself career changing was going right what are my must haves in terms of both you know like life stuff day -to -day life stuff but also the sort of work that I want to do what are the things that I am prepared to trade off in the short term and then you just sort of know I think there's some really interesting work by people like Oliver Berkman who wrote a great book called 4000 weeks time and how to spend it it's a brilliant book and he talks about how

we have a very different relationship with choices when we feel in control of them. If we feel like somebody else is making the choice for us, or there's sort of external factors, it's sometimes called our sphere of concern rather than our sphere of control. If that feels like it's ruling our lives, it doesn't feel great, because we just don't feel in control, and we all want to feel in control. I think when you outline your must haves and your nice to haves,

peter (: 33:16

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Sarah (: 33:37

you make some very explicit choices about what matters now and what matters next and just knowing where I am now doesn't mean this is where I have to stay and almost just like being very very clear about those things will then just give you the confidence to kind of go okay it's a bridging role it's a side project I'm going to do something that I'm really passionate about that's going to help me do use those new skills.

And then the other thing I would just be looking at if I was Josh just very, very practically, I think some organizations are better than others just at sort of embracing people from lots of different backgrounds. They very explicitly say, we recognize that cognitive diversity, so people who bring loads of just difference in all sorts of ways, is really useful for our organization. We don't want cookie cutter people. And you can just see examples of organizations that talk.

explicitly that practice what they preach, they're not just saying it for the sake of it, they sort of really believe it. So maybe they have, it could be just something like a returners program for maybe it often tends to be women, but not always women who have been out of work for maybe like 10, 11 years. Now that's not what Josh wants to do, but if I saw an organization that had a returners program, I would think, oh, they're probably more up for me doing a career change than perhaps an organization that

peter (: 35:04

Yeah.

Sarah (: 35:05

something like that. And I think there are sometimes signals and clues that we can look for in terms of which organisation.

Sarah (: 35:21

recently ran a big global experiment about squiggle and stay, people sort of staying in organisations but really moving around and one of the organisation's spec savers changed their job specs so they added some wording at the top that basically said almost like we're less worried about your exact experience, we're much more interested in your transferable talents. So if you're looking to do something different, we're really open to you. So very explicitly giving permission for people to say in turn...

peter (: 35:35

Nice.

peter (: 35:46

you

Sarah (: 35:51

I work in procurement, quite fancy a go in finance or I quite fancy a go in marketing. Don't discount yourself before you even get started. And so if I saw that from an organization, I'd be like, great, they believe in transferable talents. And I remember myself when I was moving from marketing to corporate responsibility, I thought, wow, I'm quite a high risk hire because I've never done this before. I've got zero experience. The only thing they're getting are my transferable talent.

remember the director saying to me, yes, but that's what I'm paying you for. She was like, you can learn, you can learn the other stuff. And you've got the right people around you. And actually, what really matters is demonstrating that you've got that ability to learn that that kind of infinite learning loop, like that's what will matter. And I always think when I don't want to go and work for a company where they're saying, oh, well, you're you don't fit in this exact box. And we like to recruit everybody that looks and sounds the same.

peter (: 36:25

Yeah.

Sarah (: 36:51

So if I was Josh, I would also be looking at things like B corporations, those corporations that take purpose and profit seriously, those organizations that have those kind of initiatives and schemes that just reflects the brilliant uniqueness and difference that we can all bring to our careers. I hope so.

peter (: 37:09

brilliant and hopefully Josh will find that really really helpful in terms of the answer. There's lots of nuggets in there that you've just given and it's amazing how you compare and when you're describing your journey how you've kind of very intentionally separate out what the must haves are and what the nice to haves are because when I do coaching that's exactly what I go through and I think it's applicable in so many walks of life that it's almost the fundamental place to basically begin. I have a

Final question for you, which is this.

Sarah (: 37:40

Yeah.

peter (: 37:42

If there is a key skill, one key skill that is important that people need to succeed in a squiggly career, what would it be?

Sarah (: 37:51

to always be learning. So consistently curious, really open, sometimes described as sort of also learning agility. So that sort of embracing new situations, being open and kind of flexible, but just this idea of we are all now unlearning and relearning all of the time. And I think for lots of us, that might sound easy, like, oh, to have this learning mindset.

peter (: 38:00

That's true, yeah.

Sarah (: 38:17

but most of us grew up in a system where we were told what to learn and how to learn it. And that was certainly my reality and kind of the state education that I had and actually education I had after that. And so I almost feel like we have to relearn how to learn at work. And it's very different from what we might label learning based on our previous experiences. It's not a teacher telling us the answer. It doesn't have to look like going on a course.

And so the thing I see the people, you know, we spend so much time with sort of thousands of people across the world on their careers every year. The people I see who are really just thriving and enjoying their squiggly careers. They just all got this learning mindset. I can't do this yet. I know I've got neuroplasticity in my brain. I can keep learning. I can keep growing. Hey, do you know what? I will fail, but I've never failed to learn. I will put myself in those situations where I can discover and

peter (: 38:45

Yeah.

Sarah (: 39:14

potential might feel a bit scary. We can sometimes call it the courage zone, but I'll go for it when I feel kind of up for it and in the right position to do that. So just this learning mindset, I think just sets you in really good stead for sort of that squiggly career.

peter (: 39:16

That's amazing. For those people, because one thing I haven't mentioned is the podcast is hugely successful. So if you're listening to this right now, how many downloads do you have now?

Sarah (: 39:38

Probably just over four million I think.

peter (: 39:43

Okay, so if you're listening and watching this and you haven't actually gone to listen to the podcast yet It's called squiggly careers podcast, right? Go and check it out. Go check it out and go and have a little listen There is so much in terms of what you can pick up and learn just from this conversation I've actually learned quite a bit but aside from the podcast how else can people find you and Perhaps work with you as well

Sarah (: 39:51

Yeah, that's right.

Sarah (: 40:07

So if you go to amazingif .com we have a free squiggly careers toolkit. So for example if you wanted to spend some time on values we've got a whole toolkit on values you can download and use that's all free so that's really good for free stuff. If you wanted to work with us on leadership or career development programs or those things like squiggle and stay you'll find all our details on there too. Podcast is great we have a couple of books if you like to learn by reading which are the squiggly career and you coach you.

reviews, that's all free. So that's really good for free stuff. If you wanted to work with us on leadership or career development programs, or those things like Squiggle and Stay, you'll find all our details on there too. Podcast is great. We have a couple of books if you like to learn by reading, which are The Squiggly Career and You Coach You. And we have a TED talk called The Best Career Isn't Always a Straight Line, which I think about 2 million people have watched now. And that's a really good... Oh, did you watch it?

peter (: 40:43

I watched it yesterday, it's very, very good. Yeah.

Sarah (: 40:47

And it's quite a short, we kept it quite short intentionally, so I think it's about a nine minute TED Talk. So if you just want an easy entry to kind of learn a little bit more about myself and Helen and kind of what we believe in, what we stand for, TED Talk is probably the best place to start.

peter (: 41:04

I'll leave links to all of that in the show notes and on YouTube in the description. So feel free to reach out. I hope you found this episode of the podcast helpful. Please provide some feedback. If you would like your question answered in the mailbag section of the podcast, all you need to do is either email me at hello at peterkomanafia .com. I'll put it again in the description and in the show notes on the podcast. But.

Sarah (: 41:29

you

peter (: 41:32

Easiest thing for you to do would be to just message me on Instagram, because I can just grab it there and they go into a separate folder. And that's when I have an appropriate expert. If I can't answer it, I will definitely bring it up as something to be answered. And hopefully we can help that way. But appreciate your time and your attention on this episode. Until next time, have a good one.